Is Lotto Legal??

ok, so i suggest the possibility that TQ is actually breaking the law by allowing Lotto in thier game. aside from a simple suggestion, i come with some legal backing. Now this is a difficult thing for me to admit, mostly because I personally love Lotto, its fukkin sweet, even tho i havent won anything super spectacular. Unfortunatly for others who feel the same as i do about how great lotto is, i am going to continue to explain why because i feel that we need to use any leverage possible to fukk-TQ. If that means possibly sacrificing lotto, then maybe it wont be so bad, after all, TQ may be forced to return the game to something more like it used to be. . .like when db's actually dropped, or artisan wind actually knew how to soc items.

Ok, so in as plain english as possible, i will explain why i believe lotto fringes on the border of legality, i will then post links to websites that provide all the necassary legal jargon backing my statements, and then i will even continue to disecting the terms of aggrement that TQ made us all sign to possibly understand if they have covered themselves for this scenario. Although this post is lengthy, i suggest that as many people as possible read it in its entirety in hopes that someone may be able to shed further light on the subject.

The Theory --->

TQ Digital offers an F2P game ConquerOnline. This game is free to download and free to play for anyone who wishes to do so. To create revenue to supprt the servers that run the game and pay for the programming of the game as well as to profit from the game, TQ digital has created a system that allows players to purchase in game items for real life money. These items, known as dragon balls, are used in game for several purposes, from upgrading equipment to working as a sort of in game currency in trades. Recently however, TQ digital has offered an oppertunity for players to convert dragon balls into a universally recognized and stable currency known as CP or Conquer Points. CP can be used to buy items in game for pre-set and fixed prices. It can also be used to purchase a lottery run, wich is no diffrent than purchasing a lottery ticket. a lottery ticket in ConquerOnline is sold for a fixed price and yields random prizes that range greatly in value from virtually worthless to among the most valuable items in the game. The fact that a dragon ball is sold on TQ's website for specified amounts of real life money and that a dragon ball in-game is exchanged for a specific amount of CP, and that a lotto ticket is sold for a specific amount of CP, one could easily calculate the real money value of an in game lottery ticket. With that said, we can technically say TQ sells items of designated value, or tokens. Tokens that can be used in game to gamble. Anyone who is familiar with online gambling laws in the U.S. would know this is not legal. with that said, We can call TQ digital an illegal online gambling house. Online Gambling houses based in the U.S. are illegal. TQ has 2 possible outs working in their favor. Possibility 1, the servers that run the game are not actually located on U.S. soil. Possibility 2, The terms of agreements page that is signed by all players during account creation may cover them in some way. Possibility 3, they are actually operating an illegal gambling house, but no one cares. This topic has been thouroughly researched by myself and my brother and we have found several resources to, however 1 resource in particular stands out in bieng particularly clear and usefull. http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/California/

a simple google of online gambling will reveal absolutly tons of repetative information all backing this post and everything found in the link above..

the possibility that TQ wrote a terms of agreement soo tight, that this all doesnt matter exists as well. In the terms of agreement it clearly states that all characters and items in game, found or purchesed, belong solely to TQ digital, and u dont actually own anything. Can this be interpteted to convince someone that you cant gamble with something that isnt urs, even though u bought it? We dont know. I also vaguely remember something in the contract like if u agree u wont legally assault TQ or something. . even though the relevance of that should be none considering they are breaking the law and it would ultimatly be california pressing charges. . .i think.

And as for where exactly are the physical locations of the servers, well that doesnt seem to be posted anywheres, and they may verywell be located in china, but we doubt it. This topic need help and research and we are calling on the comunity of those who fukkin hate TQ for what they have become to help us. Even though we just publicized our theory, if TQ is at fault, there is nothing they can do because the crime has been comitted. Like telling a murderer he cant murder anymore because its illegal, and he stops and nothing ever happens to him. We need you to talk about it, say what u think whether its bullshit or awsome or u see a diffrent aspect, lets build off each other. Lets work towards an agreement and if TQ is in the wrong, lets formulate a plan to use this against them. we apologize for the length but details and complete thought to someone who has no idea about whats going on at all were necassary. Thnx, now debate

It is not against the law because you pay cash to buy "tokens" to play "slot machines" that have no potential of legally giving you cash back. Meaning its technically not gambling. Its more of an arcade game that if you get luck you could get a really high score and your name saved in the thing as #1.
For it to even be called gambling there must be a legal potential for you to gain more money (real life of course) then what you put into it. Meaning if you spend 20$ on Conquer Online there is no way you could (legally) get that money back or more by playing the lotto.

im in disagreement, i know its a stretch, but these prizes can be directly translated back into items of value (ie: gourd is 19 something dbs) and even if it cant be directly given a value, all items in game , whether they are supposed to be or not, are bieng sold via paypal for real money. I know its a stretch, but legality is based upon interpritation of law and 1 more thing. I have seen scratch off tickets bieng sold before whee prizes that can be won are not of monatery value, world poker tour stuff, corvets and other cars, yea they dont print those often, but i have seen it in the past. I'd like to know where it says that lotto isnt a lotto. besides, arcade games require skill. oh and can u delete the qoute john, that wasnt necassary lol, its huge

One other thing about the lotto, that the other admin did not talk about. The legal age to play lotto. If the in game lotto is proven to be a real lottery, then to play, you would have to be 18 years of age or older. Last time i checked, you only had to be 13 years old to play this game. and there is no ge restriction on buying dbs cause any kid can walk into a bank and direct deposit cash into tq account. so if there is some way in proving that in game lotto is a real lotto. then whoops, tq fukked up again. oh yea, there are no odds posted either, so again, if its proved to be real lotto, then thats illegal too. lol

this is what my sister had to say to me after i posted the 1st post from this thread on CO forums....HERE is the link

Jon wrote:

It is not against the law because you pay cash to buy "tokens" to play "slot machines" that have no potential of legally giving you cash back. Meaning its technically not gambling. Its more of an arcade game that if you get luck you could get a really high score and your name saved in the thing as #1.
For it to even be called gambling there must be a legal potential for you to gain more money (real life of course) then what you put into it. Meaning if you spend 20$ on Conquer Online there is no way you could (legally) get that money back or more by playing the lotto.

I disagree, many ppl on CO as u may kno r selling CO items for Real money on paypal and such. So if u think about it you could pay 7.99 on 2 dbs and u win something worth 5 do the math
7.99*2.5=$20.00 so techniclly you could make money off of the lotto

Pissed-Off wrote:

im in disagreement, i know its a stretch, but these prizes can be directly translated back into items of value (ie: gourd is 19 something dbs) and even if it cant be directly given a value, all items in game , whether they are supposed to be or not, are bieng sold via paypal for real money. I know its a stretch, but legality is based upon interpritation of law and 1 more thing. I have seen scratch off tickets bieng sold before whee prizes that can be won are not of monatery value, world poker tour stuff, corvets and other cars, yea they dont print those often, but i have seen it in the past. I'd like to know where it says that lotto isnt a lotto. besides, arcade games require skill. oh and can u delete the qoute john, that wasnt necassary lol, its huge

yea



Although if you read the TQ TOS your not actually purchasing the DBs and you don't own any items or even your character. You simply use stuff that belongs to TQ (when you buy dbs you buy the rights to use items belonging to TQ). I'd love to see them sued, or fined but i doubt it would happen. Oh and players selling things is not endorsed or supported by TQ, infact they do quite the opposite. They tend to screw people who get caught.

Ice9 wrote:

One other thing about the lotto, that the other admin did not talk about. The legal age to play lotto. If the in game lotto is proven to be a real lottery, then to play, you would have to be 18 years of age or older. Last time i checked, you only had to be 13 years old to play this game. and there is no ge restriction on buying dbs cause any kid can walk into a bank and direct deposit cash into tq account. so if there is some way in proving that in game lotto is a real lotto. then whoops, tq fukked up again. oh yea, there are no odds posted either, so again, if its proved to be real lotto, then thats illegal too. lol

Read the TOS it says you must be 18+ to play the game legally.


What you guys have to understand is it doesn't matter what people are doing under the table. If TQ isn't allowing sales then they're not responsible for any sales that go on as long as they make their best effort (its really shitty) to stop it. THats like saying its the fault of the police everytime a drug deal goes on . In a way it is, but in a way it isn't.

ehh...yeeeeaaaa, from my point of view, i think tq could give 2 shits as to where their money comes from.
ok..tq sells a product..cool. they get loads of money for it...aight w/e. if u gotta b 18 to 'play' the game legally, then they shuold not allow people under that age to play. Probably a little more effort would have to go into enforcing that then tq would wanna handle, but if ur talkin about lotto, then they have to do somthing to check that age. SSN check perhaps. yea costly in time and money, but would get the job done.

or eliminate lotto all together to avoid checking ages an bring back old socketing rates and better db drops, i remember when my archer first hit 120 and i started plvling, i found atleast 2 dbs a day in bird island, havent found a db since the new patches, but even still we are aware that ur probably right jon, as far as bieng covered by the terms of agreement, and i stated in the first post how what u say is true, the fact is we have been looking into this for almost a month now and even gone as far as to get lawyers to look into it. Unfortunatly internwet law is soo new, there arent too many people willing to take a look at it, let alone understand what the fukk we are talking about. the point of posting the subject here is to get others involved in helping to figure it out. Posting reasons why it is all irrelavant is fine, but what we are really looking for is a way around all these issues. Law is after all, interperetable, all we have to do is come up with a way to convince a judge and a jury that TQ should have done lotto a diffrent way and were good. Once we figure it out, then it technically would become the state of california VS TQ, all you would do would be tip a prosecutor or law enforcement in Los Angeles and hey would take it from there. i think lol. . .keep posting tho, progress is progress and if we got nothin than we got nothin, TQ still sux and they still have a BBB rating of F

Oh and to Arch Angel, ur sister posted something about a "dealy" on the official CO forum, is she suggesting that the servers are actually in china?? hard to understand her post, and whe u guys make links to other sites in ur posts, using words to link there is fine, but u should also underline or italisize the word because unless u scroll over it, u cant tell

sadly, its all perfectly legal.
if you read through the terms of service, you dont actually own anything on the server, not even your character (which means that tq can snatch your character whenever they want no matter how many bulks you've bought).
so technically, no money is changing hands. you donate TQ's cp to TQ's LadyLuck in hopes of getting one of TQ's amazing items to put on TQ's character that you have lvld.

Jon wrote:

Read the TOS it says you must be 18+ to play the game legally.

END USER AGREEMENT Conquer Online wrote:

a) Eligibility. Accounts are available only to adult individuals eighteen ( 18 ) years of age or older. If you are less than 18 years of age and wish to use the Service, your parent(s) or guardian(s) must complete the registration process, open an Account in their name(s), and accept full responsibility for all obligations under this Agreement. Those who have completed these steps and who maintain their Account in good standing are sometimes referred to in this Agreement as "Member(s)", "User(s), or "Player(s)". By clicking the "I Agree" button you represent that you are an adult 18 years of age or older. Only one person may use an Account. [b]The registered User of an Account may use the Account or may choose instead to permit a minor child of the registered User to use the Account. You are liable for all activities conducted through your Account, and parents or guardians are liable for all activities of their minor child conducted through the Account.[/b]

as it states in the tos you do not have to be 18+ to play the game. You just need to have a parent or guardian fill out the form and take all responsibility for the account. I also feel that it should be removed from the game (even though i am addicted to it myself). it is illegal to gamble online unless you have a license to provide the service and anyone using said service is of age to gamble. Even though it states that you do not own anything pertaining to the game even the dbs after you buy them with your rl money (not fair in my opinion, you should at least own the dbs and do what you please with them, even if that is to sell them for rl cash to someone else. like myself for example, i do not use credit cards and my bank does not offer a debit card or check card. so, when i was buying dbs, i would give my sister the money for the dbs and she uses a green dot card...for those of you that dont know what that is, its a pre-paid credit card...in order for her to put money on the card it has to be a minimum of $20 on the card. so i would actually be paying $20 for 5 dbs and she would order them, and then give them to me. so! she would actually be selling me the dbs for around $4.)...now that i just got completely lost...i will leave it at that...lol

yes, green dot is an excellent option for minors and those without a credit card. however i think that the lotto in game is still considered a lottery and, as with every other real lottery, ie: state lottery, odds must be provided. If not, then that lottery is operating illegally. also, getting back to the credit card topic, there are other ways to get dbs as a minor. any shmuck can walk into a bank and deposit cold hard cash into thier account. there is no age restriction there. i stated this in a previous post, look up. the whole operation just seems fishy to me and the lottery just lies in the gray area of legality and might even be considered a moral issue on tq's part. should they even offer somthing like lottery to these kids, regardless of age. they know that kids under 18 are playing it, the agreement is just there to cover thier ass...I mean what kinda example are they showing. lets get kids addicted to lottery so we can keep taking thier money. good idea in theory, but consider the backlash on the kids, like...GETTING ADDICTED TO REAL LIFE LOTTERY. If i wasnt already addicted to real life lottery, playing the in game lotto would definitely make me think twice and persuade me to play real life lottery. get em while they young i guess huh? hold up..wednesday...9 pm...SHIT i gotta go get some lotto for tonight...brb.

Arch_Angel wrote:

Jon wrote:

Read the TOS it says you must be 18+ to play the game legally.

END USER AGREEMENT Conquer Online wrote:

a) Eligibility. Accounts are available only to adult individuals eighteen ( 18 ) years of age or older. If you are less than 18 years of age and wish to use the Service, your parent(s) or guardian(s) must complete the registration process, open an Account in their name(s), and accept full responsibility for all obligations under this Agreement. Those who have completed these steps and who maintain their Account in good standing are sometimes referred to in this Agreement as "Member(s)", "User(s), or "Player(s)". By clicking the "I Agree" button you represent that you are an adult 18 years of age or older. Only one person may use an Account. [b]The registered User of an Account may use the Account or may choose instead to permit a minor child of the registered User to use the Account. You are liable for all activities conducted through your Account, and parents or guardians are liable for all activities of their minor child conducted through the Account.[/b]

as it states in the tos you do not have to be 18+ to play the game. You just need to have a parent or guardian fill out the form and take all responsibility for the account. I also feel that it should be removed from the game (even though i am addicted to it myself). it is illegal to gamble online unless you have a license to provide the service and anyone using said service is of age to gamble. Even though it states that you do not own anything pertaining to the game even the dbs after you buy them with your rl money (not fair in my opinion, you should at least own the dbs and do what you please with them, even if that is to sell them for rl cash to someone else. like myself for example, i do not use credit cards and my bank does not offer a debit card or check card. so, when i was buying dbs, i would give my sister the money for the dbs and she uses a green dot card...for those of you that dont know what that is, its a pre-paid credit card...in order for her to put money on the card it has to be a minimum of $20 on the card. so i would actually be paying $20 for 5 dbs and she would order them, and then give them to me. so! she would actually be selling me the dbs for around $4.)...now that i just got completely lost...i will leave it at that...lol

what I meant is you have to be 18+ to have the responsability of the account... technically the account that your gaurdian fills out is supposed to be controlled by them.


I don't get what your point is with the dbs.. but pre-paid credit cards dont exist in many countries. (like Canada)

u just go buy a card for like 5-10 dollars and load it up with cash...then use the number on the card to purchase shit online..IE: dbs...its called green dot by mastercard. thats if u didnt know what one was..

Ice9 wrote:

u just go buy a card for like 5-10 dollars and load it up with cash...then use the number on the card to purchase shit online..IE: dbs...its called green dot by mastercard. thats if u didnt know what one was..

I know what it is. Unfortunately they don't sell them here I wanted one to go shopping on ebay

jump the border and get one, lol. they sell em at 7 11.

Ice9 wrote:

jump the border and get one, lol. they sell em at 7 11.

Lol I should but its about a 2 hour drive for me. Im 200 kms from detroit

@Jon:

In Canada if you head to your local Safeway, Macs or Rexall Drug Mart (Whichever is closer) they have Gift Card Stands, which will have a card called the Vancity MyTreat Visa. They come in 25, 50, and 100 dollar amounts. You purchase the card, it is not reloadable, but you can then use it to purchase.

I often buy 25 dollar cards, buy a 15.99 card, and it leaves about $7.80 left on the card (not enough to buy a two pack) so what I do then is go to a local fast food chain, buy a drink of some sort of a dollar and ask for 5 dollars extra.

For more information on the Visa MyTreat Gift Cards:

http://www.safeway.ca/GiftCard.asp
https://www.vancity.com/MyCommunity/AboutUs/MediaCentre/MediaReleases2005/Nov15FirstprepaidVISAgiftcardsintroducedinCanada/?auth=form

To check the balance of the card, and view your transactions:

http://www.mybalance.ca/

Hopefully that helps a bit!
And no, I don't work for Visa. haha.

Thao wrote:

@Jon:

In Canada if you head to your local Safeway, Macs or Rexall Drug Mart (Whichever is closer) they have Gift Card Stands, which will have a card called the Vancity MyTreat Visa. They come in 25, 50, and 100 dollar amounts. You purchase the card, it is not reloadable, but you can then use it to purchase.

I often buy 25 dollar cards, buy a 15.99 card, and it leaves about $7.80 left on the card (not enough to buy a two pack) so what I do then is go to a local fast food chain, buy a drink of some sort of a dollar and ask for 5 dollars extra.

For more information on the Visa MyTreat Gift Cards:

http://www.safeway.ca/GiftCard.asp
https://www.vancity.com/MyCommunity/AboutUs/MediaCentre/MediaReleases2005/Nov15FirstprepaidVISAgiftcardsintroducedinCanada/?auth=form

To check the balance of the card, and view your transactions:

http://www.mybalance.ca/

Hopefully that helps a bit!
And no, I don't work for Visa. haha.

What!?!?! You mean those are useable on the internet!?!?!?!

Thanks, I checked those out before, the cashier told me I couldn't use them to buy crap off ebay !

COOL. u figured out how to buy, but I wouldnt start supporting tq by buying their dragonballs now. I have been clean for about 5 months now, ever since i got hacked and my shit got jacked. I will not buy one more db until tq gives my shit back, but i have been back and forth with those fukkers for too long now, and the chance of them doing anything for me is beyond slim.

lol, clean for 5 months, like we should have a db buyer anonymous. . .like alchoholics anonymouse, DBA instead of AA lol. . .hi, my name is pissed off, and im a db buy-a-holic. . .ROFL

WOOHOOO! FIRST TOPIC TO NEED A 2ND PAGE LOL. . .oh, and gratz for getting way the fukk off topic guys, what were we talkin about anyways lol???????

....double posting is for noobs, but to triple post takes a pro

IM PRO LOL

I don't know if anyone posted it, but the older servers are in New York and the newer servers are in Los Angeles

nope, server locations are an x factor, thnx for the info, now is there any way to prove it?